Discussion DUNE Discussion Thread ~🏜~ Fear is the mind killer

[corinthia]

• DUNE Discussion Thread •​

This thread is for the discussion, critique, praise, and all manner of conversation regarding the DUNE franchise, including but not limited to:

• The original six Frank Herbert books: Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, and Chapterhouse: Dune​
• The supplemental expanded universe books penned by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson​
• The 1984 DUNE film by David Lynch​
• The 2000 DUNE miniseries​
• The 2003 Children of Dune miniseries​
• The 2021 DUNE film by Denis Villenueve​
• DUNE Roleplaying Games​

This thread permits spoilers.

 

[Darth Kratos]

I'm just finishing the sixth book of Dune. Chapterhouse. I was describing to my son how the six novels span 15,000 years and his eyes went so wide. To consider The Tyrant's book took place at the end of his 3000 year reign, and then they skipped 10,000 years to get to the next book, it boggles the mind. We as humans have a hard time grasping changes year to year, much less thousands.

When I was younger, I typed up the Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear and put it on my desk at work. That was a powerful reminder to keep striving for more.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

 

[corinthia]

I just finished reading Dune a few days ago, after slowly chipping away at it for over a year! I am already almost a quarter of the way into Dune Messiah and am loving it! So far, though, I have to say that I'm enjoying Messiah more than Dune. (Shocking, I know, considering how poorly received Messiah was!) I think the original Dune suffered greatly due to being published serially, moreso than Messiah did. I felt that Dune had some pretty major pacing issues, starting out at a nice clip, then dragging, then an awkward jump, then hurrying to the finish line. Although I guess you could say that the book walks without rhythm, just like the Fremen

I have to say I do like the thick prose of the first book; Herbert's writing was crunchy, thoughtful, and self-reflective. So far, Messiah seems to be a more effortless style.

@Darth Kratos, have you had the opportunity to see the 2021 film yet?

 

[Darth Kratos]

I did! I enjoyed the big displays. I thought each of the actors (including a gray-bearded Oscar Isaac) did fabulous jobs. Herbert has a way of doing a lot of internal dialog. The writers and directors did a great job of not making that oppressive.

Of the small things, I liked the stiltent design.

How about you?

 

[corinthia]

I really enjoyed the movie! Of course, I'd been looking forward to it since it was first announced. I'm particularly fond of the soundtrack (it is 100% in my writing music rotation now), and I definitely agree that they were able to communicate the most important points of the book successfully on the screen without resorting to stifling voice-overs or too much expositional dialogue. And I thought the pacing was spot-on. It didn't drag or race, and it felt like a much shorter film than its two and a half-hour runtime. In fact, I would love to eventually see an extended edition that includes all the cut scenes that I know exist Like Gurney with his baliset, or the banquet scene (a lot of the initial promotional images showed Lady Jessica in the red dress for that scene, but it wound up being cut).

The ornithopter design was spot-on, *exactly* how I imagined it when I read the book.

I liked that they gender swapped Liet Kynes, I know some fans have complained about that, but it made no difference to me whatsoever, and I think they actually did the character's death better justice for a film adaptation than what was in the book. Considering, yknow, that Kynes' death was 100% internal dialogue about his father and whatnot. Having Kynes go out like a boss to a sandworm, fighting Sardaukar was amazing.

I'm really looking forward to part 2. I wish they'd been able to shoot both halves at the same time! So we wouldn't have to wait so long!

 

[Darth Kratos]

I was actually surprised they had to "announce" a part two. Just seems like it'd be a foregone conclusion.

Consider this: if they continue to make each book 2 parts, we've got 12 movies total to watch! Get ready for another MCU marathon of movies!

 

[corinthia]

This would be a fantastic casting for Irulan!

 

[Darth Kratos]

I looked at her IMDB. Nice list of credits!

 

[corinthia]

So I finished reading Dune Messiah earlier this month, and have cracked Children of Dune (but haven't gotten very far, yet)! I have to say that overall, I much more thoroughly enjoyed Dune Messiah than Dune. Maybe it was because of the length, but it felt much better paced than its predecessor, and I liked that it leaned much more heavily on the themes that Dune introduced but didn't elaborate all that much on, like the dangers of the messiah/white savior trope, the destructiveness of cults-of-personality, etc. I felt it was far more thought provoking and layered.

My only nitpick was how Irulan was set up to be some great betrayer in the first portion of the book, only to be put on ice halfway through and virtually never mentioned again until the very, very end, wherein it's mentioned in passing that she realizes she does love Paul, yadda, yadda. Actually, I'm kind of irked at Irulan as a character in general, so far. The first Dune set her up as some key, influential matriarchal character with all those chapter headers and such, but I've yet to actually feel like she's filled those shoes. What I have seen of her, I've liked, but I think Herbert is gravely underutilizing her thus far. Hopefully Children of Dune will salvage her.

I really like and am interested in Alia; she is a fascinating juxtaposition of unfettered young womanhood that's highly restrained by the burden of her powers and origin. I like how seemingly wild, almost feral, she comes across.

Here are some of my favorite passages from Dune Messiah, that I highlighted as I was reading:

"The uninitiated try to conceive of prescience as obeying a Natural Law," Paul said. He steepled his hands in front of him. "But it'd be just as correct to say it's heaven speaking to us, that being able to read the future is a harmonious act of man's being. In other words, prediction is a natural consequence in the wave of the present. It wears the guise of nature, you see. But such powers cannot be used from an attitude that prestates aims and purposes. Does a chip caught in the wave say where it's going? There's no cause and effect in the oracle. Causes become occasions of convections and confluences, places where the currents meet. Accepting prescience, you fill your being with concepts repugnant to the intellect. Your intellectual consciousness, therefore, rejects them. In rejecting, intellect becomes a part of the processes, and is subjugated." (p. 75)

"What have you told him to do?" [Alia] whispered.

"I told him to judge, to impose order."

Alia stared out at the guard, marking how patiently they waited— how orderly. "To dispense justice," she murmured.

"Not that!" [Hayt] snapped. "I suggested that he judge, no more, guided by one principle, perhaps..."

"And that?"

"To keep his friends and destroy his enemies."

"To judge unjustly, then."

"What is justice? Two forces collide. Each may have the right in his own sphere. And here's where an Emperor commands orderly solutions. Those collisions he cannot prevent— he solves."

"How?"

"In the simplest way: he decides."

"Keeping his friends and destroying his enemies."

"Isn't that stability? People want order, this kind or some other. They sit in the prison of their hungers and see that war has become the sport of the rich. That's a dangerous form of sophistication. It's disorderly." (p. 156-157)

"You produce a deadly paradox," Jessica had written. "Government cannot be religious and self-assertive at the same time. Religious experience needs a spontaneity which laws inevitably suppress. And you cannot govern without laws. Your laws eventually must replace morality, replace conscience, replace even the religion by which you think to govern. Sacred ritual must spring from holy praise and holy yearnings which hammer out a significant morality. Government, on the other hand, is a cultural organism particularly attractive to doubts, questions and contentions. I see the day coming when ceremony must take the place of faith and symbolism replaces morality." (p. 257)

 

[Darth Kratos]

I'm working my way through Chapterhouse: Dune, so I'm going to keep my mouth shut. You've got some great observations there, but you're in for some real shocks.

I say "working my way through," because it's getting to be a slog. I'm not sure if it's because of Herbert's thick writing (sometimes I find myself reading something, but not understanding it until a lot later), or if its because I'm getting tired of the Dune universe, or if I'm not following where he's going and it's losing me. What's most interesting about Chapterhouse is that it's a thick book, but not that long. I realized the pages are thicker. It's the same thickness of one of George RR Martin's books, but only 2/3rds of the length.